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Outlaw Rogue Review - Battle for Azeroth Class Community Opinions

envoyé 2018-07-19 à 22:04 par Squishei

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Commentaire de Zeratule Having played Outlaw in all of its iterations since Legion Beta, the changes made, for the most part, have improved the spec. While buried treasure will quickly become a weak buff in roll the bones builds due to the flat rate of regen, for undergeared or haste-lacking rogues it does help improve the pace of the spec. From the mythic+ I've dabbled in to see how the scaling turned out, Outlaw is still holding up pretty nicely in the pre-patch. The new placement of marked for death as a level 45 talent was a welcome change, and Blade Rush is an awesome and much-needed talent for the Outlaw toolkit. Having a gap closer that gives energy and can do decent AoE damage with blade flurry active makes it very desirable, though the new Killing Spree is holding up very nicely as well, and is second to none for bursting down a pack of mobs. Dancing Steel, however, should have some sort of additional effect, even if minor, that gives some single target gain, as these other two abilities have single target capabilities.

The only cons that I can think of are the somewhat extensive cooldown to Ghostly Strike, which although is reduced by true bearing\/restless blades, just feels like the % bonus should be slightly higher to warrant not being able to keep it active more consistently. Due to this, quick draw will easily pull ahead in overall damage gain. It would make sense, to me at least, that an active ability that requires some upkeep and attention, should offer larger DPS gain over a simple passive that doesn't influence your rotation or require any additional thought.

Overall though, Outlaw has handled the pre-patch pretty well I would say, and is looking promising as a mythic plus spec, though its single target is slightly lacking. Commentaire de irmos Badly outlaw was pretty nice at the start of Legion, but some other classes start cry for the 6 rolls...thats why outlaw gets 200% nerf on the bracers lego and 20% on the run through and it is the only class that gets so much nerf in 2 months...outlaw now i think is the only class atm that haves to choose between 2 pretty good talents on the 90 lvl and 100.... dancing steel is nothing...worst talent i ever see... even on draenor the BF was 2 charges but it was turn on and turn off...yes has a penalty for energy reg but still...Killing spree is a bad rework of the old ks...So sub can have his DfA as talent as it was to all Legion and he can crit for 30-35 million pre patch and is the only spec that can do so big numbers the other 2 specs can use it i think only as a pvp talent, that i havent try it yet i get bored with Sub spec and the OP burst cheat dmg..I am sure that Outlaw need a nice rework..as the most ppl say in all the legion expa and they want it for, Commentaire de Bergelmir I've never played this game to be the best. I play to have fun, and outlaw used to be the most fun spec by far. Couldn't they have just let us keep it? :P Commentaire de Jaiie Having played Outlaw in all of its iterations since Legion Beta, the changes made, for the most part, have improved the spec. While buried treasure will quickly become a weak buff in roll the bones builds due to the flat rate of regen, for undergeared or haste-lacking rogues it does help improve the pace of the spec. From the mythic+ I've dabbled in to see how the scaling turned out, Outlaw is still holding up pretty nicely in the pre-patch. The new placement of marked for death as a level 45 talent was a welcome change, and Blade Rush is an awesome and much-needed talent for the Outlaw toolkit. Having a gap closer that gives energy and can do decent AoE damage with blade flurry active makes it very desirable, though the new Killing Spree is holding up very nicely as well, and is second to none for bursting down a pack of mobs. Dancing Steel, however, should have some sort of additional effect, even if minor, that gives some single target gain, as these other two abilities have single target capabilities.

The only cons that I can think of are the somewhat extensive cooldown to Ghostly Strike, which although is reduced by true bearing\/restless blades, just feels like the % bonus should be slightly higher to warrant not being able to keep it active more consistently. Due to this, quick draw will easily pull ahead in overall damage gain. It would make sense, to me at least, that an active ability that requires some upkeep and attention, should offer larger DPS gain over a simple passive that doesn't influence your rotation or require any additional thought.

Overall though, Outlaw has handled the pre-patch pretty well I would say, and is looking promising as a mythic plus spec, though its single target is slightly lacking.

Outlaw is listed as one of the top 3 DPS specs in BfA. I would be hard pressed to argue that based on my experience in beta.

From what I can tell at the moment (and SimulationCraft agrees with my feeling), It looks like the T21 bonus is making (more accurately, continuing to make) Roll the Bones a valid option. Once that set bonus goes away, as it did for my rogue in beta, I ended up switching to Slice and Dice as many players did in Legion prior to the set bonus being in play. I liked not having to worry about the RNG. What I didn't like was losing Marked for Death. If they could have put that back on another tier, I'd have felt Outlaw was perfect. Choosing between Marked for Death and something else wasn't a difficult choice, it was a painful choice.

Ghostly strike, even pre-BfA, wasn't that big of an incentive to take. Even before the legendary bracers, I chose the talent (since renamed) for the additional damage to pistol shot and it simmed out roughly identical (if not better) than ghostly strike - which matched my in-game experience. Ghostly strike adds complexity to the rotation for the sake of complexity (it doesn't add anything interesting).

As for Blade Rush, I have mixed feelings about it. I'd have preferred Killing Spree. We're painfully short on cooldowns and while Blade Rush masquerades as both a combo point spender AND a "relatively" short cooldown, it has the best and worst of both. While I leveled with Killing Spree on beta, I am likely to take Blade Rush on live (and have). Not because Blade Rush is fun or has a useful mechanic, but because it currently does more damage than Killing Spree. When it comes down to damage vs fun, what do people take in raids for DPS check fights? Damage talents. We only take fun if it is mechanically required and\/or has the highest damage. Blade Rush is essentially Cannon Ball Barrage and Death from Above with a different animation and improved damage coefficients. If it wasn't taken in Legion by most, there was a good reason for it.

The one thing I do like about the changes to Outlaw, we're not spamming buttons constantly (usually 65-68 actions per minute, meaning less than a second before any button had to be pushed). I like having some strategy and time to think about how I want something to play out rather than a rapid fire spam for the sake of spam response to something. (I know he's not a true pirate, but it always makes me think of Johnny Depp's pirate in the Pirates of the Caribbean. Sure, on occasion he had to think fast on his feet, but most of the time it was about strategy and using someone's slow mind, rather than fast actions, to defeat them. This, I suspect was their model for the revamp of "Combat" into "Outlaw".) Commentaire de Drakenking Having played Outlaw in all of its iterations since Legion Beta, the changes made, for the most part, have improved the spec. While buried treasure will quickly become a weak buff in roll the bones builds due to the flat rate of regen, for undergeared or haste-lacking rogues it does help improve the pace of the spec. From the mythic+ I've dabbled in to see how the scaling turned out, Outlaw is still holding up pretty nicely in the pre-patch. The new placement of marked for death as a level 45 talent was a welcome change, and Blade Rush is an awesome and much-needed talent for the Outlaw toolkit. Having a gap closer that gives energy and can do decent AoE damage with blade flurry active makes it very desirable, though the new Killing Spree is holding up very nicely as well, and is second to none for bursting down a pack of mobs. Dancing Steel, however, should have some sort of additional effect, even if minor, that gives some single target gain, as these other two abilities have single target capabilities.

The only cons that I can think of are the somewhat extensive cooldown to Ghostly Strike, which although is reduced by true bearing\/restless blades, just feels like the % bonus should be slightly higher to warrant not being able to keep it active more consistently. Due to this, quick draw will easily pull ahead in overall damage gain. It would make sense, to me at least, that an active ability that requires some upkeep and attention, should offer larger DPS gain over a simple passive that doesn't influence your rotation or require any additional thought.

Overall though, Outlaw has handled the pre-patch pretty well I would say, and is looking promising as a mythic plus spec, though its single target is slightly lacking.

Outlaw is listed as one of the top 3 DPS specs in BfA. I would be hard pressed to argue that based on my experience in beta.

From what I can tell at the moment (and SimulationCraft agrees with my feeling), It looks like the T21 bonus is making (more accurately, continuing to make) Roll the Bones a valid option. Once that set bonus goes away, as it did for my rogue in beta, I ended up switching to Slice and Dice as many players did in Legion prior to the set bonus being in play. I liked not having to worry about the RNG. What I didn't like was losing Marked for Death. If they could have put that back on another tier, I'd have felt Outlaw was perfect. Choosing between Marked for Death and something else wasn't a difficult choice, it was a painful choice.

Ghostly strike, even pre-BfA, wasn't that big of an incentive to take. Even before the legendary bracers, I chose the talent (since renamed) for the additional damage to pistol shot and it simmed out roughly identical (if not better) than ghostly strike - which matched my in-game experience. Ghostly strike adds complexity to the rotation for the sake of complexity (it doesn't add anything interesting).

As for Blade Rush, I have mixed feelings about it. I'd have preferred Killing Spree. We're painfully short on cooldowns and while Blade Rush masquerades as both a combo point spender AND a "relatively" short cooldown, it has the best and worst of both. While I leveled with Killing Spree on beta, I am likely to take Blade Rush on live (and have). Not because Blade Rush is fun or has a useful mechanic, but because it currently does more damage than Killing Spree. When it comes down to damage vs fun, what do people take in raids for DPS check fights? Damage talents. We only take fun if it is mechanically required and\/or has the highest damage. Blade Rush is essentially Cannon Ball Barrage and Death from Above with a different animation and improved damage coefficients. If it wasn't taken in Legion by most, there was a good reason for it.

The one thing I do like about the changes to Outlaw, we're not spamming buttons constantly (usually 65-68 actions per minute, meaning less than a second before any button had to be pushed). I like having some strategy and time to think about how I want something to play out rather than a rapid fire spam for the sake of spam response to something. (I know he's not a true pirate, but it always makes me think of Johnny Depp's pirate in the Pirates of the Caribbean. Sure, on occasion he had to think fast on his feet, but most of the time it was about strategy and using someone's slow mind, rather than fast actions, to defeat them. This, I suspect was their model for the revamp of "Combat" into "Outlaw".)

Except Blade Rush doesn't use Combo points at all? And on top of that, a properly used Greenskins rotation is far harder then keeping Ghostly strike up.

If we're going to get talking about Blade Rush vs Killing Spree, how is letting go of control of your character for 2 seconds fun or engaging? Blade Rush is the highest simming talent in that Tier, restores energy, has no combo point requirements, and can be used when you're energy starved and acts as a charge. You couldn't have gotten any more wrong about the ability. Also if you're not spamming abilities, you aren't ramped up. You should be using Greenskins and Insignia on SIngle Target with Quick Draw, Alacrity, and Blade Rush. Reroll for Grand Melee\/Ruthless Precision, or any 2 buffs.

Just to tie up this information, you're also wrong about Ghostly strike not having been worth it, if that was the case, your gear wasn't good enough to push Ghostly strike ahead because the difference between those two talents was between 50-100k dps, and not once in my entire time playing Outlaw(Have played Combat since BC) did I miss Marked for Death, though thats going to be more personal opinion. Commentaire de Jaiie Except Blade Rush doesn't use Combo points at all? And on top of that, a properly used Greenskins rotation is far harder then keeping Ghostly strike up.\r
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I may be thinking of an earlier version, but that doesn't negate the rest of what I said.\r
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If we're going to get talking about Blade Rush vs Killing Spree, how is letting go of control of your character for 2 seconds fun or engaging? Blade Rush is the highest simming talent in that Tier, restores energy, has no combo point requirements, and can be used when you're energy starved and acts as a charge. You couldn't have gotten any more wrong about the ability. Also if you're not spamming abilities, you aren't ramped up. You should be using Greenskins and Insignia on SIngle Target with Quick Draw, Alacrity, and Blade Rush. Reroll for Grand Melee\/Ruthless Precision, or any 2 buffs.\r
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I am quite well aware of what Blade Rush does. I'm arguing that it isn't a choice. If it sims as the highest dps talent, as you and I have both pointed out, what do people pick? Is it a fun talent or is it the highest dps? Obviously, as we both agree the highest dps one.\r
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Just to tie up this information, you're also wrong about Ghostly strike not having been worth it, if that was the case, your gear wasn't good enough to push Ghostly strike ahead because the difference between those two talents was between 50-100k dps, and not once in my entire time playing Outlaw(Have played Combat since BC) did I miss Marked for Death, though thats going to be more personal opinion.\r
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I tried both simulation and real-game experience. They both matched. I'm generally within 1-2% of simulated damage in game, so I think it's fair to say we both have a handle on how the rotation works (the sim and myself). I've fiddled with it constantly as I got newer gear (and even the ideal legendaries). It still ended up better to be without Ghostly Strike. Indeed, I went through 16 combinations both in-game and in SimulationCraft at pre-launch, both agree on the outcome (combat logs AND the simulation). Maybe there's some miraculous combination out there, but I haven't seen it yet. It does not, however, detract from my comment: It adds complexity for the sake of complexity. \r
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I would be fine with a talent adding an interesting choice in the fight sequence. This does not do that. Be mindful of your responses, you're in attack mode rather than discussion mode and that's not constructive for either of us. Commentaire de Zeratule Having played Outlaw in all of its iterations since Legion Beta, the changes made, for the most part, have improved the spec. While buried treasure will quickly become a weak buff in roll the bones builds due to the flat rate of regen, for undergeared or haste-lacking rogues it does help improve the pace of the spec. From the mythic+ I've dabbled in to see how the scaling turned out, Outlaw is still holding up pretty nicely in the pre-patch. The new placement of marked for death as a level 45 talent was a welcome change, and Blade Rush is an awesome and much-needed talent for the Outlaw toolkit. Having a gap closer that gives energy and can do decent AoE damage with blade flurry active makes it very desirable, though the new Killing Spree is holding up very nicely as well, and is second to none for bursting down a pack of mobs. Dancing Steel, however, should have some sort of additional effect, even if minor, that gives some single target gain, as these other two abilities have single target capabilities.

The only cons that I can think of are the somewhat extensive cooldown to Ghostly Strike, which although is reduced by true bearing\/restless blades, just feels like the % bonus should be slightly higher to warrant not being able to keep it active more consistently. Due to this, quick draw will easily pull ahead in overall damage gain. It would make sense, to me at least, that an active ability that requires some upkeep and attention, should offer larger DPS gain over a simple passive that doesn't influence your rotation or require any additional thought.

Overall though, Outlaw has handled the pre-patch pretty well I would say, and is looking promising as a mythic plus spec, though its single target is slightly lacking.

Outlaw is listed as one of the top 3 DPS specs in BfA. I would be hard pressed to argue that based on my experience in beta.

From what I can tell at the moment (and SimulationCraft agrees with my feeling), It looks like the T21 bonus is making (more accurately, continuing to make) Roll the Bones a valid option. Once that set bonus goes away, as it did for my rogue in beta, I ended up switching to Slice and Dice as many players did in Legion prior to the set bonus being in play. I liked not having to worry about the RNG. What I didn't like was losing Marked for Death. If they could have put that back on another tier, I'd have felt Outlaw was perfect. Choosing between Marked for Death and something else wasn't a difficult choice, it was a painful choice.

Ghostly strike, even pre-BfA, wasn't that big of an incentive to take. Even before the legendary bracers, I chose the talent (since renamed) for the additional damage to pistol shot and it simmed out roughly identical (if not better) than ghostly strike - which matched my in-game experience. Ghostly strike adds complexity to the rotation for the sake of complexity (it doesn't add anything interesting).

As for Blade Rush, I have mixed feelings about it. I'd have preferred Killing Spree. We're painfully short on cooldowns and while Blade Rush masquerades as both a combo point spender AND a "relatively" short cooldown, it has the best and worst of both. While I leveled with Killing Spree on beta, I am likely to take Blade Rush on live (and have). Not because Blade Rush is fun or has a useful mechanic, but because it currently does more damage than Killing Spree. When it comes down to damage vs fun, what do people take in raids for DPS check fights? Damage talents. We only take fun if it is mechanically required and\/or has the highest damage. Blade Rush is essentially Cannon Ball Barrage and Death from Above with a different animation and improved damage coefficients. If it wasn't taken in Legion by most, there was a good reason for it.

The one thing I do like about the changes to Outlaw, we're not spamming buttons constantly (usually 65-68 actions per minute, meaning less than a second before any button had to be pushed). I like having some strategy and time to think about how I want something to play out rather than a rapid fire spam for the sake of spam response to something. (I know he's not a true pirate, but it always makes me think of Johnny Depp's pirate in the Pirates of the Caribbean. Sure, on occasion he had to think fast on his feet, but most of the time it was about strategy and using someone's slow mind, rather than fast actions, to defeat them. This, I suspect was their model for the revamp of "Combat" into "Outlaw".)

Except Blade Rush doesn't use Combo points at all? And on top of that, a properly used Greenskins rotation is far harder then keeping Ghostly strike up.

If we're going to get talking about Blade Rush vs Killing Spree, how is letting go of control of your character for 2 seconds fun or engaging? Blade Rush is the highest simming talent in that Tier, restores energy, has no combo point requirements, and can be used when you're energy starved and acts as a charge. You couldn't have gotten any more wrong about the ability. Also if you're not spamming abilities, you aren't ramped up. You should be using Greenskins and Insignia on SIngle Target with Quick Draw, Alacrity, and Blade Rush. Reroll for Grand Melee\/Ruthless Precision, or any 2 buffs.

Just to tie up this information, you're also wrong about Ghostly strike not having been worth it, if that was the case, your gear wasn't good enough to push Ghostly strike ahead because the difference between those two talents was between 50-100k dps, and not once in my entire time playing Outlaw(Have played Combat since BC) did I miss Marked for Death, though thats going to be more personal opinion.

Pretty much Draken hit the nail on the head, as ghostly strike was by and far a better talent and when running slice and dice it was practically mandatory. Considering prior to the Ilvl squish I was 975 in slice and dice, you would be hard pressed to argue that a flat 10% increase to damage with constant uptime, especially with how fast our auto attack speed once was. Blade rush is only slightly ahead of killing spree in terms of raw damage, but the utility factor makes it an enjoyable talent that is quite potent if burst is not necessary, whereas killing spree can be downright lethal if you need a lot of adds to die quickly, though at the expense of a longer cool down\/less uses. If anything you could also argue that T21 was stronger for slice and dice build prior to pre patch as it offered you the chance to get improved slice and dices through the loaded dice trait more often if you rolled true bearing. Commentaire de Jaiie ghostly strike was by and far a better talent and when running slice and dice it was practically mandatory.

I'd like to see the combination of gear that made it a better talent (by and far, as you put it). Nothing I saw in game matched that - and I'd have preferred slice and dice instead of roll the bones. If anything, I wanted to do exactly that. Nothing matched the desire, however, despite the many, many variations I tried (I have all of the outputs saved on my computer from it as well).

Edit to add: Indeed, after BfA pre-launch, I'm showing an 11.4% dps reduction in choosing ghostly strike and slice and dice vs quick draw and alacrity (matching my in-game experience). I re-ran it as I didn't have the outputs on my work computer. 11.3% before the most recent hotfix nerf to slice and dice. Commentaire de Zeratule ghostly strike was by and far a better talent and when running slice and dice it was practically mandatory.

I'd like to see the combination of gear that made it a better talent (by and far, as you put it). Nothing I saw in game matched that - and I'd have preferred slice and dice instead of roll the bones. If anything, I wanted to do exactly that. Nothing matched the desire, however, despite the many, many variations I tried (I have all of the outputs saved on my computer from it as well).

Ironically I was in the exact opposite position for most of antorus, as I had played RTB for the entire time of legion until the final tier. Due to how strong the pantheon procs were and how wel they scaled with attack speed, having ghostly strike is how I consistently got al my best numbers. I\u2019m sure the 7.3.5 numbers are still active, so check out my warcraftlogs for Zerat\u00fcle of Tichondrius if you\u2019re interested. Unfortunately my mythic parses are less than favorable compared to m heroic and normal, you can see pretty much the loadout I ran every fight for the end of antorus. I only wish I got a decently leveled auto attack ring at some point.

Edit: Yeah it unfortunately is a pretty large disparity in Pre-Patch(slice and dice with ghostly I mean), which is a shame as it is a build most people enjoyed and could make play more like Combat, which is ideal for a lot of folks. Commentaire de Jaiie Ironically I was in the exact opposite position for most of antorus, as I had played RTB for the entire time of legion until the final tier. Due to how strong the pantheon procs were and how wel they scaled with attack speed, having ghostly strike is how I consistently got al my best numbers. I\u2019m sure the 7.3.5 numbers are still active, so check out my warcraftlogs for Zerat\u00fcle of Tichondrius if you\u2019re interested. Unfortunately my mythic parses are less than favorable compared to m heroic and normal, you can see pretty much the loadout I ran every fight for the end of antorus. I only wish I got a decently leveled auto attack ring at some point.

I'd have to assume you have a trinket I don't as I have everything else best in slot for the tier and it matches what SimulationCraft has for top dps. The difference they had was a trinket from a previous mythic raid tier (which I didn't get as nobody runs that on my server). And, interestingly, my results in-game matched the simulations within a 1-2% delta (both accounting for minor server latency and positioning).

Edit: It is different. While I do have a different secondary trinket, I also have the 4pc bonus and you do not, I have the bracers and you do not in that setup. That's why Roll the Bones is better for me than Slice and Dice. Commentaire de Cyberium I prefer the old Killing Spree where you get to teleport around like a ninja. :( Commentaire de Jaiie Edit: Yeah it unfortunately is a pretty large disparity in Pre-Patch(slice and dice with ghostly I mean), which is a shame as it is a build most people enjoyed and could make play more like Combat, which is ideal for a lot of folks.\r
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I was seeing the same thing pre-patch. The numbers were a little closer together than the wide gulf they are now, though. I think what is increasing the difference is the set bonus (as I suggested in my first comment) from 4pc. \r
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I tried all combinations (at least with the dps changing talents vs the survival\/flavor ones) and they match pretty closely to simulationcraft's interpretation. At the moment, I can't justify running the spec configuration I'd like (and couldn't in beta). Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer less RNG. RtB angers me like nothing else about the spec. But, I also can't justify nerfing myself 11% for no reason. Commentaire de Zeratule Ironically I was in the exact opposite position for most of antorus, as I had played RTB for the entire time of legion until the final tier. Due to how strong the pantheon procs were and how wel they scaled with attack speed, having ghostly strike is how I consistently got al my best numbers. I\u2019m sure the 7.3.5 numbers are still active, so check out my warcraftlogs for Zerat\u00fcle of Tichondrius if you\u2019re interested. Unfortunately my mythic parses are less than favorable compared to m heroic and normal, you can see pretty much the loadout I ran every fight for the end of antorus. I only wish I got a decently leveled auto attack ring at some point.

I'd have to assume you have a trinket I don't as I have everything else best in slot for the tier and it matches what SimulationCraft has for top dps. The difference they had was a trinket from a previous mythic raid tier (which I didn't get as nobody runs that on my server). And, interestingly, my results in-game matched the simulations within a 1-2% delta (both accounting for minor server latency and positioning).

Edit: It is different. While I do have a different secondary trinket, I also have the 4pc bonus and you do not, I have the bracers and you do not in that setup. That's why Roll the Bones is better for me than Slice and Dice.

Unfortunately with the huge nerf to dice and dice it would be hard to compare exactly, as the reason it was so strong was the auto attack price of the pantheon trinket was such a huge % if my damage on good pulls. I think between both the Ravaging Storm and Thunderous Wrath, it would some times make up nearly 18-20% of my DPS in a fight. My currently equipped gear is obviously different due to just messing around with things, but my logs should show all my standard setups for things.

Also the convergence was a bit overrated honestly, though if it was generous it could be pretty powerful.

To really see how much DPS old slice and dice could do, you would have to add the pantheon proc strong to your simulations while wearing the pantheon trinket, naturally. It was pretty obscene. Lol Commentaire de Jaiie Also the convergence was a bit overrated honestly, though if it was generous it could be pretty powerful.\r
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To really see how much DPS old slice and dice could do, you would have to add the pantheon proc strong to your simulations while wearing the pantheon trinket, naturally. It was pretty obscene. Lol\r
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The wild swings were, well, unpredictable. Adding RtB unpredictability to that as well made it hideous. Now that convergence is no longer a factor (and wasn't except for Antorus raids anyway), it's a good way for us to see how the spec plays elsewhere. At the moment, and especially matching experience in beta and pre-launch, there's no justifiable reason I can think of (which matches my first comment) to keep ghostly strike and\/or slice and dice. \r
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In an ideal world, I'd love to play it that way (at least with slice and dice). This isn't an ideal world. So, I'd say we circle back to the original point I made: This adds complexity for the sake of complexity and doesn't add to the spec. (I'd even say that for anything that wasn't Antorus related pre-patch) Commentaire de Zeratule I understand where you\u2019re coming from, I think my biggest qualm with slice and dice was the fact it doesn\u2019t have any complexity at all, so having the debuff application\/monitoring on targets with ghostly strike gave it something more to do, especially if you were running the shoulders and ring, which basically eliminated between the eyes from your rotation if you weren\u2019t running bracers, as it was a wasted chance for an extra roll the bones buff from the T21 bonus. Commentaire de Jaiie I understand where you\u2019re coming from, I think my biggest qualm with slice and dice was the fact it doesn\u2019t have any complexity at all, so having the debuff application\/monitoring on targets with ghostly strike gave it something more to do, especially if you were running the shoulders and ring, which basically eliminated between the eyes from your rotation if you weren\u2019t running bracers, as it was a wasted chance for an extra roll the bones buff from the T21 bonus.\r
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I wouldn't mind some complexity with Slice and Dice, but not gratuitously so (just for the sake of it, without value). The extreme end of that scale (complexity) is RtB without the set bonuses. Roll... re-roll... re-roll... re-roll YAHTZEE (or at least a tolerable configuration). That was absurd.\r
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You make an interesting argument (which I like, actually) about BtE vs Ghostly Strike. It substitutes one for the other. Though, one is a little more reactive (BtE) and the other is every time it is ready to roll off the target (GS). In the end, it isn't changing the number, just "when" it happens. Okay, I'll buy that.\r
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It sounds like Convergence allowed for Ghostly Strike to work (in Antorus anyway, but not in M+) better than RtB. But, once we remove that crutch (Convergence), the spec has to stand on its own. Okay, now that Antorus is going to be no longer a thing, does the spec stand on its own as is? \r
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That's the question we should be answering (and why I didn't answer or comment in the context of Antorus with my first comment which set off this rather long chain of replies). BfA is where the original focus of the original post, the comment I replied to, and the substance of my comments (I didn't call out Antorus because I was more in reference to scenarios that are roughly analog to BfA: M+, World, other raids, etc.)\r
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If there were something interesting about Ghostly Strike (and potentially equal dps to the alternatives in the talent tier), I'd consider putting it back in rotation. Same with Slice and Dice (though, it may be more in parity once the tier bonuses go away and remove the insane game of chance that RtB is without the set bonuses). Commentaire de Zeratule \r
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I wouldn't mind some complexity with Slice and Dice, but not gratuitously so (just for the sake of it, without value). The extreme end of that scale (complexity) is RtB without the set bonuses. Roll... re-roll... re-roll... re-roll YAHTZEE (or at least a tolerable configuration). That was absurd.\r
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You make an interesting argument (which I like, actually) about BtE vs Ghostly Strike. It substitutes one for the other. Though, one is a little more reactive (BtE) and the other is every time it is ready to roll off the target (GS). In the end, it isn't changing the number, just "when" it happens. Okay, I'll buy that.\r
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It sounds like Convergence allowed for Ghostly Strike to work (in Antorus anyway, but not in M+) better than RtB. But, once we remove that crutch (Convergence), the spec has to stand on its own. Okay, now that Antorus is going to be no longer a thing, does the spec stand on its own as is? \r
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That's the question we should be answering (and why I didn't answer or comment in the context of Antorus with my first comment which set off this rather long chain of replies). BfA is where the original focus of the original post, the comment I replied to, and the substance of my comments (I didn't call out Antorus because I was more in reference to scenarios that are roughly analog to BfA: M+, World, other raids, etc.)\r
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If there were something interesting about Ghostly Strike (and potentially equal dps to the alternatives in the talent tier), I'd consider putting it back in rotation. Same with Slice and Dice (though, it may be more in parity once the tier bonuses go away and remove the insane game of chance that RtB is without the set bonuses).\r
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Right, got a little off track on that one. Regarding the future of outlaw and it\u2019s current state in Pre-Patch,Ghostly Strike needs a buff or rework of some type to make it pertinent again, or at least to put it closer with the other level 15 talents.\r
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Though this would probably not happen, a possible way that ghostly strike could be made an interesting part of the rotation would be if it instead was a finisher, that gave an increased damage bonus per combo point spent, but with a longer cooldown or a reduced duration. Just a thought.\r
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With how weapon damage will scale now, I think slice and dice will eventually find itself in a good place, though it will take a pretty big item level increase before it becomes a competitive alternative once again. Commentaire de kodora1316 I've never played this game to be the best. I play to have fun, and outlaw used to be the most fun spec by far. Couldn't they have just let us keep it? :P\r
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Same. I\u2019ve enjoyed combat and outlaw because (for me personally) I found them the most fun spec for rogues. We\u2019ll see if that continues with the inevitable balancing that comes after an expansion\u2019s release. :) Commentaire de Jaiie Right, got a little off track on that one. Regarding the future of outlaw and it\u2019s current state in Pre-Patch,Ghostly Strike needs a buff or rework of some type to make it pertinent again, or at least to put it closer with the other level 15 talents.

Though this would probably not happen, a possible way that ghostly strike could be made an interesting part of the rotation would be if it instead was a finisher, that gave an increased damage bonus per combo point spent, but with a longer cooldown or a reduced duration. Just a thought.

That's still better than the old "Increased Insight" ramp-up to ramping up was. (Tedious, irritating... and that's being kind) I think they've left Outlaw mostly alone in so far as major changes for the BfA and pre-launch phases. That either means we are OK or... that we are due for a major revamp. I would prefer more the former than the latter unless it means moving Marked for Death to a useful spot.

With how weapon damage will scale now, I think slice and dice will eventually find itself in a good place, though it will take a pretty big item level increase before it becomes a competitive alternative once again.

Well, having done theorycrafting for WoW before (I wrote DrDamage for a couple expansions (MoP and WoD)), weapon damage is on a stat budget as much as the stats are (primary or secondary). They scale at the same rate because of the formula used for them. What you're really arguing is more definition (5-10 dps differential now vs 50000 dps later on when the difference is more noticeable but at the same percentage) will be possible due to the increase in item levels. That's fair, but not really going to make the deciding factor.

What does will be how our secondary stats are now affecting our damage in ways they didn't before. We were absolutely allergic to mastery most of the time in almost every expansion. Now, it does a surprisingly larger amount of damage (at least once we get rid of our Legion gear). It may not be 100% parity to versatility, crit, or haste, but it isn't a "junk" stat anymore. I was surprised to see it did a fairly large chunk of my damage around 118-120 in beta.

Unlike most specs, most of our damage (I can't think of any abilities outside of combo point spenders) is weapon damage derived. That's equipped weapon damage + AP converted to weapon damage for the non-finishers (unlike Dispatch\/Run through\/Eviscerate depending on the expansion). Everything has been a multiple of weapon damage in the past except for a small number of abilities. Even assassination's bleeds\/poisons were AP derived (same for subtlety's dots). I don't see this really affecting us that much because the baseline for our abilities hasn't really changed in the ways (i.e. mechanics) the stats affect us - in so much as in the intensity (i.e. coefficients).

What will really make or break it for us will be the Azerite traits. Just like legendaries, artifact traits, and trinket procs did (convergence as well in Antorus), it has the capacity to completely alter our playstyle and scaling. I don't think the first tier of traits will be game changing to a great degree. But, as with anything else they've rolled out, it will probably become a greater and greater influence as we go from tier to tier in raids.

Commentaire de Zeratule

That's still better than the old "Increased Insight" ramp-up to ramping up was. (Tedious, irritating... and that's being kind) I think they've left Outlaw mostly alone in so far as major changes for the BfA and pre-launch phases. That either means we are OK or... that we are due for a major revamp. I would prefer more the former than the latter unless it means moving Marked for Death to a useful spot.

Well, having done theorycrafting for WoW before (I wrote DrDamage for a couple expansions (MoP and WoD)), weapon damage is on a stat budget as much as the stats are (primary or secondary). They scale at the same rate because of the formula used for them. What you're really arguing is more definition (5-10 dps differential now vs 50000 dps later on when the difference is more noticeable but at the same percentage) will be possible due to the increase in item levels. That's fair, but not really going to make the deciding factor.

What does will be how our secondary stats are now affecting our damage in ways they didn't before. We were absolutely allergic to mastery most of the time in almost every expansion. Now, it does a surprisingly larger amount of damage (at least once we get rid of our Legion gear). It may not be 100% parity to versatility, crit, or haste, but it isn't a "junk" stat anymore. I was surprised to see it did a fairly large chunk of my damage around 118-120 in beta.

Unlike most specs, most of our damage (I can't think of any abilities outside of combo point spenders) is weapon damage derived. That's equipped weapon damage + AP converted to weapon damage for the non-finishers (unlike Dispatch\/Run through\/Eviscerate depending on the expansion). Everything has been a multiple of weapon damage in the past except for a small number of abilities. Even assassination's bleeds\/poisons were AP derived (same for subtlety's dots). I don't see this really affecting us that much because the baseline for our abilities hasn't really changed in the ways (i.e. mechanics) the stats affect us - in so much as in the intensity (i.e. coefficients).

What will really make or break it for us will be the Azerite traits. Just like legendaries, artifact traits, and trinket procs did (convergence as well in Antorus), it has the capacity to completely alter our playstyle and scaling. I don't think the first tier of traits will be game changing to a great degree. But, as with anything else they've rolled out, it will probably become a greater and greater influence as we go from tier to tier in raids.

Admittedly I have never got into the actual number-crunching that is theory-crafting, and base most of my results on combat logs and performance over the course of the expansion, so this may be entirely unfounded, though it seems consistent with the trend we saw with Legion.

The largest assumption I have for slice and dice once more becoming top in later tiers is that the buffs from RtB never increase in value, so rolling a 'buried treasure' or 'ruthless precision' at lower levels of gear\/actual level will have a much larger effect on our performance. For the sake of argument, if a character already has 35% critical strike, then a 20% bonus to crit (or 60% bonus to BtE) will not be as impactful as a lower geared or lesser geared character who only has 15% critical strike. Due to this, it seems that RtB favors earlier portions of an expansion, where a player hasn't been able to accumulate a large amount of stats, whether primary or secondary. I also have found that my secondary stats in Beta have stayed within a reasonable range of each other, with attack power and agility residing a fair amount higher.

On the opposite end of this, if auto-attack damage is based off of either a combination or singularly Attack Power or Agi, then it will consistently grow as the character levels further and\/or gathers better gear, so a build that directly relies on flat damage increases, which have been made the primary goal of BfA as far as the designer's intentions are, will improve over time. I am trying to do more research on this topic as we've discussed it, so I may be in the wrong about some concepts about scaling.
However, that is not to say that a RtB build will not benefit from extra primary or secondary stats, but in relative terms, the benefits that RtB gives will seem lesser in comparison to the actual stats of a character.

This is entirely speculation, of course, as I have not ever devised out the exact % increases or decreases associated with the algorithms used for these things, so I may be wrong. I am always open to more understanding of a spec\/class I have played for literally over a decade, so any information or understanding I can glean is worthwhile.

As an aside, some of the azerite traits feel MUCH stronger than others, which I am curious as to how they will balance them in future tiers, as you alluded to. Regarding pre-patch, I feel most classes will come into their own a bit more (especially regarding how people want to play their class\/spec) once azerite traits are available, as some cater to particular rotations\/talent choices.

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